STOP EVERYTHING - I just had the best idea!

"themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles" (themanwithsauce) 01/08/2014 at 22:53 • Filed to: I had an idea

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Step 1) Take a new fusion

Step 2) Put the powertrain from a Focus ST in it and up the boost some more

Step 3) Convert it to a homage to the old Falcon rally cars

Yes they're not RWD, and the new fusion is actually a touch longer than the old falcons by a few inches but still - I would rallycross the fuck out of one.

ptak appreciates old racecars > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 01/08/2014 at 22:54

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Why not use the Taurus? It's 'Murican-er.

Milky > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 01/08/2014 at 22:58

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Do they even have a AWD option anymore?

Also ins't a falcon more inspirit to a Focus? aka a 'compact'.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > ptak appreciates old racecars 01/08/2014 at 22:59

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Too big.

M54B30 > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 01/08/2014 at 23:00

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I think a Fusion ST would be a great seller. I bet Ford wouldn't do it because it'd steal customers from the $45,000 elephant in the room (SHO)

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Milky 01/08/2014 at 23:01

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It is a "compact" like the focus but the focus sedan is an ugly MoFo. Plus the focus is 10 inches shorter than the falcon while the fusion is about 9 inches longer. So given that the fusion sedan will carry the torch better, that's what I chose. The fusion lacks an AWD/manual option right now but you can get it with the 1.6 ecoboost and a 6-speed manual. However, imagine if you put in a 260+ hp 2.0L out of the focus ST. I wouldn't road race one, but I would participate in rallycross events so I could use the lack of friction to rotate it better to fight understeer.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > M54B30 01/08/2014 at 23:04

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Nah, just keep the fusion 4-cylinder powered and maybe give it AWD like the old fusion sport. Or do the 300hp mustang V6 with the AWD. the SHO keeps the 360hp but the fusion is clear of the 260hp focus which is clear of the 200hp fiesta ST. I'm aware there is much more to it than power, but people only focus on power in the showroom.

Milky > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 01/08/2014 at 23:10

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Ford should just give us a hotter version. That would solve the problem.

GeorgeyBoy > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 01/08/2014 at 23:19

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I'm told V6 option(s) will only be given to the MKZ. Gotta differentiate them somehow..

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > GeorgeyBoy 01/08/2014 at 23:21

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well fine, high output 4's FTW

StoneCold > ptak appreciates old racecars 01/08/2014 at 23:35

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Taurus is more of a Galaxie equivalent

SonorousSpeedJoe > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 01/08/2014 at 23:40

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So basically, take a Fusion 2.0T AWD and crank up the boost or swap in the 2.3T, then give it the appropriate tires, suspension, and other bits to make it a decent rallycross vehicle.

I like that idea.

Who needs sway bars anyway > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 01/08/2014 at 23:49

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Scratch all of that... It's even easier than that, all Ford needs to do is import the Aussie ford falcon. 4 doors, inline six or coyote v8 and style out the wazoo. Bam! Instant win.

lucky's pepper > Who needs sway bars anyway 01/09/2014 at 00:00

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That this magnificent machine was never brought to the US is one of history's great injustices.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > lucky's pepper 01/09/2014 at 00:04

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As no one bought the G8 or GTO when they were offered, ford did the smart move by not doing this. Like it or not, no one buys these cars here. Not even jalops.

lucky's pepper > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 01/09/2014 at 02:01

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So who bought all those Panthers for years and who's buying all the Charger/300's today?

Ford sold boat loads of the much-inferior Panther for years. Look at the Panther sales numbers and they don't go in the toilet till '07 when the economy went in the toilet and the damn thing was 15 years old by then. Where do you think those buyers went? Do you think they're now driving Taurus's and MKS's?

Not only did Ford give up on the civilian customer base of the of these cars, they gave up on the law enforcement market. Do you think anyone is buying the Taurus Interceptor in big numbers? Everyone is buying Chargers.

The Falcon would have offered Ford a much better platform to satisfy the Panther's customers. Check out the Falcon line-up. Nice fancy versions for the former Crown Vic/Grand Marquis crowd that could be powered by the 3.7 V6. Ready-made hot rod versions that could have been powered by either the twin-turbo 3.5 or the 5 liter. A little restyling and it would have made a great MKS and would have made for actual competition for the CTS.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > lucky's pepper 01/09/2014 at 02:25

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A few things here - the charger/300 and the panther platforms were 100% developed for the American market first and foremost. The 300C and charger were designed and engineered with those nameplates introduced early enough on that they could evolve into the name. The "Falcon" in Australia is not the "Falcon" people in America remember (for starters it is a 4-door sedan while the classic falcon is a 2-door). The panther platforms were very large fleet vehicles with minimal "typical" customer sales and most of those were senior citizens so the falcon would not at ALL take over that market share. And you know what? YES THEY ARE BUYING TAURUSES! The taurus has become a very popular car among the 45+ crowd. I guarantee you less than 1% of the panther platform's sales were to people under the age of 35.

Pull your head out of your ass - the Falcon is an aussie designed and built performance focused sedan that lacks "typical American style" and will retail for well over 30k if it has a V8 since it's built in Australia. You want to know how those cars have fared historically, even with a hefty ad budget? VERY VERY VERY POOR! What you are suggesting Ford try has already been tried multiple times. If the Chevrolet SS is a success, then *maybe* Ford would consider doing such a thing.

But what you want them to actually do is to do a clean sheetmetal design for the American market. What you have in your mind is NOT the Australian Falcon, it is an American Falcon and they are not the same.

WorldRally17 > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 01/09/2014 at 08:39

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Even better change the Focus ST engine for a Taurus SHO engine. I would buy a twin turbo V6 Fusion!

Wildstar > SonorousSpeedJoe 01/09/2014 at 10:21

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Swap in the entire AWD drivetrain from the current SHO, and call it a day.

lucky's pepper > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 01/09/2014 at 10:23

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"Pull your head out of your ass". Wow, aren't you just a dick. I see this will be the last conversation I have with you.

Who the cares what market the Falcon was developed for? No one said anything about an "American Falcon". I said they should have brought the car here and used domestic engines instead of the Aussie inline 6 to avoid certification issues. They could have called it the Taurus or Crown Vic or whatever they hell they wanted. Do you think anyone cares where the platform under the Camaro and previous generation CTS came from? I don't think either of these cars have done "VERY VERY VERY POOR", as a matter of fact I think they are both sales successes for GM.

"the Falcon is an aussie designed and built performance focused sedan". What percentage of Falcon's sold are "performance focused and what percentage are sold just as nice big cars? That's like saying the Mustang is a performance focused coupe so no one else must buy them other than performance enthusiasts? . The vast majority of Mustangs sold are V6/autos. And as to you comment that it "lacks "typical American style" ", add some chrome trim. You realize it is a hell of a lot cheaper to change a cars styling then engineer a new platform?

"The panther platforms were very large fleet vehicles with minimal "typical" customer sales". Really?! Try looking up the Crown Vic's sale numbers. You think they were selling 80-100K a year for a decade to police departments and taxi companies?! Who do you think was buying the Grand Marquis or the Town Car? Seen many Grand Marquis/Town Car taxis or police cars?

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > lucky's pepper 01/09/2014 at 10:33

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I hear these "they should bring _____ over" all the time and it gets old. Fast. Because you are not in the meetings where people make those decisions. You don't know what they know. And even if they did bring over all those cars, how big do you think the market is.

"Who cares what market the falcon was developed for?" This is why I said pull your head out of your ass. Think for a moment - the automotive climate in Australia is different than the US which is different than Europe which is different than Asia. There's a reason why there are entire groups of cars that other regions will never see. If the GTO and G8 were "sales successes" as you claim, then Pontiac would still be around. But face facts - they were failures and made Lutz seem like a bit of a chump when the "GTO" came out and it wasn't the GTO people remember. So the Aussie falcon is a) a 4-door, b) Australian, c) a RWD "performance" sedan, and d) not an SUV. The market for that car is abysmally small in America. It would be cool if it was sold here but there is zero reason for Ford to take that risk for such a small audience.

Oh and yes, they were selling that many to government agencies and fleet services. Grand Marquis and Town Cars made good hire cars and my town did buy the mercury for the police fleet. I have no clue why, but they did. Ever been outside an airport? The yellow taxis are crown vics but the black hire cars are town cars.

lucky's pepper > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 01/09/2014 at 12:58

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Yes, you're right, there's no reason.

Dodge sold 102,924 Chargers and 63,099 300s in North America last year. A rear-drive, four-door sedan. GM sold 33,340 CTSs in North America last year, a rear-drive, four-door sedan (and wagon and coupe) based on an Australian platform. They also sold 82,734 Camaros. A rear-drive coupe based on an Australian platform. Clearly there is no market in North America for four door, rear drive sedans, or cars engineered in Australia.

When all the design and engineering work is already done, the money already spent, the sales necessary to justify the car shrink substantially.

I also wasn't in the room or privy to all the information when the decisions were made to produce the Aztec, the Hummer, to get rid of the Taurus name and replace it with 'Five Hundred' and numerous other asinine decisions auto companies make everyday. Clearly these auto execs are never wrong.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > lucky's pepper 01/09/2014 at 13:18

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But again - the charger and 300 were designed for us. They had some idea of what they wanted to do and went with it. It was a risk to release a 4-door charger but they figured if they were brawny enough with the design they could pull it off. So you are correct - making an American car for Americans usually results in good sales numbers in America. The Camaro might be based on a chassis used by the Aussies, but it was designed to evoke the first gen camaro and did a damn good job at it. It uses retro style and camaro heritage to make it work. It is not really "australian".

Ford had a chance to bring the falcon over here when they were remaking the Taurus from their midsize volume seller into their large sedan. They could've called the mondeo the taurus and brought over a RWD australian sedan as their large sedan to fill the shoes left behind by the panther platform. And you are correct - they f-ed up by calling the Taurus the 500. So you know what they did? They listened to people (more than just some people on the internet) and made a decision to bring back the name but also put it on their new flagship large sedan. I don't think anyone at ford really regrets not bringing the Falcon over here since it just wasn't realistically going to lead to success. Side note, Hummer was a massive money maker for GM for a few years. I think they pushed it too hard and grew it too large to survive but buying Hummer was a good money making decision for GM.

I like playing armchair engineer as much as the next, but my suggestion here is honest - a fast fusion could happen. They have the components to do so. I'm not asking them to be all "OMG AWD V8 TURBO FUSION!!!!!" because that would be insane to expect from such a large car maker. They simply wouldn't sell enough at a high enough price to make it even close to profitable. But putting a drivetrain already in large scale use worldwide into a chassis already well sorted out to house that drivetrain isn't ridiculous......My rally car tribute is a bit ridiculous but that's on me, not Ford.

lucky's pepper > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 01/09/2014 at 14:30

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You're assertion that the Charger and 300 are a success simply because they were built for the North American and the G8 wasn't because it was built for Australian holds no water. Good cars are good cars no matter what market they were/are designed for. And if some exec thinks the styling of the exterior or interior would be a barrier to the cars success, changing either or both would be a minor cost in comparison to engineering a whole new vehicle. A perfect case in point being the old CTS, which is a Holden Commodore with different sheet metal and a different interior. Hell, that's all the Camaro is too. The economy at the time it was launched had a huge bearing on the fact that the G8 didn't become an instant sales success. Had it not been for the collapse of both the economy and GM we would have had both the ute and wagon versions. Neither a sign GM thought the car a loser.

And if I believed your assertion that fleet sales made up the largest portion of the Crown Vic's sales, what kind of vehicle do you think police agencies/taxi companies would have an easier time accepting as a replacement, a FWD/AWD sedan or another RWD sedan? I'm in law enforcement and I can tell you not a single agency in the area I live and work in (and that includes Border Patrol and Customs who have a large presence in this area) has bought a Taurus. Not one agency. Everyone is buying Chargers. As I said, with the Taurus, Ford gave up that market because everyone is dubious of the durability of the FWD/AWD platform for LE usage and afraid of long-term maintenance costs.

You talk about how your vision for a fast Fusion is so realistic because all the components exist. So does everything Ford would have needed to bring the Falcon to North America! A platform already in existance that would have used drive-trains that already exist.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > lucky's pepper 01/09/2014 at 16:53

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Look at the interior of the G8 compared to the camaro and compare them both to the holdens. The G8 was a quick badge job. The camaro was a thorough redesign using the chassis as a base platform. THe interior parts are not readily interchangeable between the camaro and the G8, but you could do a badge and trim swap on the G8 quite easily with holden parts.

The CTS has always been on a cadillac only platform - Sigma. The STS, CTS, and SRX all used the same architecture. So I have zero clue where you got the idea that they were australian. Here's what I mean when I say "designed for Americans". When the charger was in development, the design and engineering teams primarily listened to feedback left by their target market. They built the car around those wants and needs and then sold it. But the G8 was built to Australian wants and needs and because it just so happened to meet some wants and needs in the states, they tried to sell it here to fill the full-size gap left behind by the bonneville. But it didn't go over too well for a number of reasons.

I don't know why ford is effectively surrendering the service vehicle market to the charger and caprice besides maybe they fear that with the nissan NV already taking over as a taxi mainstay and two competitors in the pool for cop cars, they might not make enough money on it? That's what comes to mind from where I sit - Part of the crown vic's success is that it was pretty much the only name in town for police cars so both Ford and the people who use and service them were all on the same page. So now having to compete against the charger, the caprice, AND potentially having to make a case against the SUVs, maybe Ford just didn't want to try that hard and just saved costs by doing a conversion package for the Taurus to make it the new impala cop car.

But here are just a few reasons why my idea of a sporty ford fusion is not the same as wanting a slightly modified aussie sean plunked into ford's lineup. First is the obvious fact that the last gen fusion had a sport package that included the big V6, some tighter suspension, and aggressive body kit (for a factory sport model). So this model has precedence in America as a successful option for the fusion. Second, the sport fusion has a slot in the lineup all to itself. It's a more modestly equipped mid sized sedan with a power output roughly the same as a base mustang, but more expensive because it isn't a bare bones pony car. The Focus ST is more "hardcore" and aimed at autocrossers while the fusion is more grown up, but not as expensive as a SHO. Bringing over the falcon would cause it to be cannibalizing the sales of another product in some way, shape, or form. Even if they just bring over the top end model as a performance sedan - the SHO is already there and is already making them money so why risk it? CHevy has space for the SS since the impala does not have an SS version. The cadillac V-cars are too refined and expensive to run the risk of a cross-shop and the camaro is "sportier" and cheaper while the SS will have all the toys and a useable rear seat. I can see the business case for the SS but I fail to see how the Falcon can be brought over in a large company like Ford. It HAS to sell in decent numbers to keep its place on showroom floors.

Your best bet is to hope Ford pulls a Chevy and brings falcons over here as "service vehicles" to get 20k or so in here every year and then buy one used. But as a typical, configurable car that you'd see parked next to the F-series and focus? It makes no sense for Ford to do it. It's a huge risk that would have a minimal payoff.

lucky's pepper > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 01/09/2014 at 18:15

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I stand corrected on the CTS; I was under the mistaken impression that it was on the Commodore platform. However the Camaro is. I understand the G8 was basically nothing but a Commodore with a different grill and badges while the Camaro has different bodywork and interior, but it's still the same platform that was engineered by the Australians.

You keep talking about how the Australians and North Americans want different things from their vehicles. Other than the steering wheel being on the opposite side of the car, what do you think buyers from the two markets want that are so different? I've driven a G8 GT and I don't remember anything about that car that made me say "that's weird, must be those wacky Australians".

My whole point was Ford screwed-up by not using the Falcon platform as the replacement for the Panther, instead of giving us a giant front-drive sedan. The current Taurus shouldn't even exist as that spot would be occupied by whatever the Falcon would be called in the US. I say it from an enthusiast perspective, but I also believe the Falcon would have catered to all former Panther buyers better than the Taurus does. You, however, insisted there is no North American market for large, four-door, rear-drive sedans (despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary) and/or cars engineered in Australia (I say who cares where the car comes from) and told me I had my head up my ass for thinking so.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > lucky's pepper 01/10/2014 at 22:34

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The platform worked for the camaro because people wanted a new camaro. Lots of people. They wanted a RWD, V8 powered pony car and so they used the existing chassis to do it. Even though the backbone of the car is Australian, an American icon was built on top of it.

You are confusing enthusiasts for the general car buyer. The general car buyer buys things like the camry and the F-150. The market you think is there for the crown vic and a RWD performance oriented sedan is very low. Even in Australia, ford only sold about 20k falcons combined between sedan, wagon, and ute. Is it any wonder why they're shutting down those facilities? Yes a decade ago, sales were triple that. Consider that the most recent generation was released in 2008. Sales have NEVER exceeded the worst year of sales for the previous generation, which was 2007. In fact, both the commodore and falcon sales have nose-dived since the early 2000s in the native market. So you know what? I take back what I said - there is market overlap and neither market wants the Australian large sedans.

YOU might not want the taurus but Ford moved over 80k in 2013. Crown Vic sales spiked in 2012 because it was the last year so fleets bought a bunch of extra stock like they did with the caprice in the 90s. over 40k moved in 2012 vs 33k in 2011. Sales were over 100k a year in the 90s but this isn't the 90s anymore. I stand by what I said, your head is up your ass if you think the falcon should've been at the top. There is no market for it when compared to the FWD taurus. That is a fact. People are voting with their wallets and they like the new taurus while even in Australia people are choosing other cars over the commodore/falcon.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > lucky's pepper 01/11/2014 at 02:06

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You know what, here's the argument closer - where are the sales going to come from? And do NOT list "potential" sales. Where are you going to get them from? Enthusiasts haven't bought them in enough numbers to make them worthwhile. The mustang AND camaro both survived carpocalypse despite being impractical while the G8 GT moved very few units (ignore the charger/300C as it could be made very cheap since the LX platform is an ancient mercedes chassis so development costs were minimal compared to importing aussie work or developing a new one). Looking at the sales of both the Australian and American large sedans, importing the falcon would be a fool's errand if you expect any volume sales. The best case scenario would be as a halo vehicle to compete with the SRT-8 and Chevrolet SS with a big NA V8 since the SHO tops out at 360hp with a turbo V6. But even then, I don't know how it would sell in the ford lineup considering you already have the mustang putting down 400+hp in the mid 30s for a well equipped example. It would have to sell itself as a "4-door mustang" and be about the same price as the SHO but with fewer features and the V8 to even have a case for itself without stepping on the toes of already successful and money-making Ford projects. After the carpocalypse, Ford is not going to make an unnecessary risk for some internet fanboys to buy used because most of them never buy a new car.

lucky's pepper > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 01/11/2014 at 09:20

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Talking about this with you is proving to be as pointless as I assumed when you started off with insults. "Don't talk about potential sales", you say. Yeah, because every new car to market has tens of thousands of units pre-sold. Or because, even though the Falcon was never brought to North America, I could some how talk about actual sales.

I think Ford would have been better served to have replaced the Panther with the Falcon. You think that's a terrible idea and anyone believing such must have their head up their ass. Let's summarize your reasoning.

US/Canadian buyers don't want cars engineered for foreign markets (because apparently those Australians are soooooo much different from us) and the Camaro doesn't count as evidence to the contrary because: A. GM gave it a different body and interior and Ford couldn't possibly do that because apparently engineering a car from the ground up is so much cheaper. B. 80,000 buyers per year worth of people clamored for the Camaros return but the people who were buying 200,000 Panthers a year at the platforms peak couldn't have possibly preferred a rear-drive replacement even though, according to you, the vast majority were all fleet sales and you admit you've no idea why Ford surrendered that market.

US/Canadian buyers don't want rear-drive sedans and the Charger/300 aren't evidence to the contrary because they utilize an old Mercedes platform, so they represented a minimal expenditure for Chrysler, so the large amount of them sold each year somehow don't count as being representative of what kind of vehicles people want to buy. It also must not count that it seems it would have made for more economic sense for Ford to utilize the FG Falcon platform that either already existed, or was well along in development, when decisions were being made about the Panthers replacement, the current Taurus.

I'm just a "fan-boy" on the internet who doesn't buy new cars (never mind that 2012 Focus in my garage) and, since I wasn't in the meetings that Ford executives were, I'm not privy to the information they are. Apparently it doesn't matter that you could fill volumes writing about the horrible decisions made by auto executives, or that "fan-boys" like me saved the Mustang.

After typing this I realize just how wrong I was. Here I thought you were just some guy on the internet, lacking in manners, busy telling everyone else how much more knowledgeable you are than them. Now I understand how right you were all along. You should send a resume to Ford. The board of directors might decide Mulally should take that Microsoft job after all.